Bards

[^^Truth]

Alright.

Quick suggestion here for next campaign.

I think bards should have D8 HP and fighter BAB. It's not like I've played one from to twenty or anything, but I've probably now studied the class more than anyone else at all.

Quite frankly no one plays bards, because they're shit, so we should try to make them a bit more attractive without OPing them.

I think 1d8 HP/level would be a nice change and fighter BAB would allow them to go and get stuck in. It's not like they'll ever be dealing tons of damage anyway (I mean, you could get power attack and a high STR I guess).

Bards are a bit like rangers (both 6 skill points a level), lets make them closer.

Then of course, now you just got the poor thieves on D6, but their damage is high enough to justify that I think and I won't mention nerfing either cleric or druid down to D6, cos I know ya'll cry me two niles and a thames.

Opinions?

[^^Truth]

Oh also, I think their later abilities should work on all allies for a shorter duration, because otherwise they're quite frankly useless.

Also, the 18th level power of Mass Suggestion need some serious work, because it's rank.

[Tromador]

It's not the hit die which puts me off bards, to be honest, it's the spell list.

That said, I might be persuaded by the d8 argument, but 100% dead set against fighter BAB.

Bards have spells, excellent skills and they enjoy saves as good as clerics. Then there is all the bardic abilities.

They already get second best BAB table (as cleric). They don't need fighter BAB on top.

In general I remain resistant to changing core classes. You are right in stating we have limited experience, thus I defer to the game designers who have the experience. If a rebalance was required, it should have come in with 3.0->3.5 as many changes did.

We've changed a number of things in Core and are now talking about moving them back to standard, as they've actually broken things. I think we must be very careful about what we do with core classes in future.

If we do make changes, however, presumably they will apply next campaign?

[^^Truth]

Aye.

I think Bards should compare to rangers more than thieves really, but I don't have the equipment or time right now to make a comparison chart. Suffice to say that I think rangers and bards would balance nicely with my simple suggested changes.

Couple of other points.

1) Looking to the game designers is fine. 3.5E -> 4.0E they removed bard completely.
2) Changes have to be next campaign as I'm currently in the middle if one and oddly I wouldn't be happy with the changes. Not that I don't think they would be good changes, but the characters mentality has been based off being mostly helpless and that would mess with the core of the character. Although where I to play a proper skald or Dwarven war bard, those changes would be essential for not being laughed at.

3rd level Inspire Competence also needs buffing. 1 bardic song for +2 on a skill check might be good at 1st - 3rd level, but it needs to raise in ability. I'd say an additional +2 every 5 levels or something.

Anyway. One step at a time.

[Tromador]

Do we really need another light armoured fighter? I don't think so.

Rangers are more fighty and less spelly, whilst bards are more spelly and less fighty. Actually a bard with Battle Caster could function in medium armour, whilst a ranger can't without losing combat styles.

I'm not convinced the third level power does need improving either. There are other powers gained at higher levels which do other, more powerful things.

Changes from 3.5->4.0 are vast and sweeping so I don't think are necessarily valid, as the whole system has been overhauled.

[JohnBoy]

I have very limited knowledge of Bards in D&D and DDO for that so any comments i can make would be quite limited but personally, unlike a fighter or a rogue (for example) I'm more inclined to view Bards as a support class other then a specific "role" within a group. Don't get me wrong, the work bards do is great. Although i've not experienced just how good Ruby's buffs makes a character (other than when dming), there is no specific role for her. Doesn't mean she's not valued though and what she lacks in combat abilities, she makes up for in social skills and helping the party move along with their task at hand.

Giving a bard a fighters BaB .. I can see why that would be good but essentially, is it needed considering the role a bard fills?

Why not give a Sorc, Fighter BaB, or atleast up it's hit die to that of a cleric? why not? Because It's just not really needed.

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