Raise Dead

[^^Truth]

Yo,

Simple one. I think we should change the raise dead/resurrection spells to allow the player to choose between losing the level and XP or losing the point of constitution.

Simple change for the better I think.

I'd go more extreme with the change but I know y'all just cry.

Tar.

[JohnBoy]

Being raised from the dead is as traumatic experience, so why not lose both?
1 level (and any spells granted for the level lost) and 1 point of con seems a fair trade off for continuing with a PC. Point being, It shouldn't be in the players hands what they lose.. as they have no choice if they get ressed or not. IC actions (the act of raising someone) cannot be determined by someone who's dead, OOC. So why should how a PC is raised and what the lose, also be determined.

If a change is to occur, why not do a d100 roll. 1-49 = lose level, 50 = lose both, 51-100 = lose 1 or 2 points of con (determined by a [1d2] roll)

[^^Truth]

Absolutely not.

Why should a player be penalised any further just because the ogre got a natural 20 and splattered them. Death is already too severe. If anything I'd go totally in reverse and lessen the death penalty.

Maybe then death won't also be a taboo area that no DM dare tread.

[JohnBoy]

As stated by the description of the skill "Raise dead", it's not the death that's traumatic, as you have no perception of it but the raising that's the harsh part so i don't buy into that.

"
You restore life to a deceased creature. You can raise a creature that has been dead for no longer than one day per caster level. In addition, the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return. If the subject’s soul is not willing to return, the spell does not work; therefore, a subject that wants to return receives no saving throw.
Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The subject of the spell loses one level (or 1 Hit Die) when it is raised, just as if it had lost a level or a Hit Die to an energy-draining creature. If the subject is 1st level, it loses 2 points of Constitution instead (if this would reduce its Con to 0 or less, it can’t be raised). This level/HD loss or Constitution loss cannot be repaired by any means. A character who died with spells prepared has a 50% chance of losing any given spell upon being raised, in addition to losing spells for losing a level. A spellcasting creature that doesn’t prepare spells (such as a sorcerer) has a 50% chance of losing any given unused spell slot as if it had been used to cast a spell, in addition to losing spell slots for losing a level.
A raised creature has a number of hit points equal to its current Hit Dice. Any ability scores damaged to 0 are raised to 1. Normal poison and normal disease are cured in the process of raising the subject, but magical diseases and curses are not undone. While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life. None of the dead creature’s equipment or possessions are affected in any way by this spell. "

Considering you would be dead otherwise, i don't see the standard as being unfair really.

I'm at a point where yes, i can raise other but myself, cannot be raised. I'd gladly take a 1 level hit if someone could raise me, other than have to go through the process of making yet another pc.

[illumination]

That change is ok with me, but I dont really mind either way really.

[illumination]

i also think all raise/ress/reincarnates should have a nominal xp cost and should fuck out the cleric, 500xp and fatigued for 24hours? casting it should be a big deal and you should seriously owe the cleric one.

[^^Truth]

Agreed.

500 XP straight is good, or 100*HD XP. Exhaustion for 1 hour per HD of the creature brought back perhaps.

I think that reincarnation needs the level loss removed though, to balance the totally shit factor of it probably screwing up your PC. Then you can gamble with reincarnation for no level loss, or play it safe with raise dead and definitely get the same character back.

[JohnBoy]

I do agree that the caster should get some sort of side effect be it xp loss or whatever. I'd take the hit if it meant the group continuing as they are with all members intact.

[Tromador]

Well, John. Any temple in Sigil will raise the dead for a suitable "donation", so being the only one in the group with raise dead doesn't make you *that* special.

And absolutely against any possibility of making the penalty worse. Sometimes the dice are randomly mean.

Example: Recent flame strike on Tza which he did nothing to deserve. If the dice had been meaner, then he's dead for no fault of his own. Why should he be punished?

I'm not so sure about XP either, to be honest. If we want raising to be in the campaign, it should be accessible. Again, why should Tsiena pay XP if someone dies completely by accident. I think I would feel obliged to make a new PC, not charge another player XP.

Fatigued effects I have no issue with.

[JohnBoy]

I didn't mean it to sound like i was special in anyway shape or form. Was just saying that now i can do it, if there was a change to be made then it should be discussed but i was more or less happy with the rule as it were.

Feeling obliged or not means nothing as you can't dictate what my pc or anyone elses can do anyway, although I guess your soul could just not be willing to be raised. But that's a different matter altogether.

[Tromador]

Exactly. My soul is my decision.

[JohnBoy]

so what is happening with Raise dead and Reincarnate?

Or that being left as is ?

[DarkAstartes]

I'd actually go all the way and restore most the the second edition rules for raising, which were far, far harsher.

I believe you needed one day of total bed rest for each day you spent dead, and you did not begin regaining hit points until then. Also the person who raised you needed a day of rest for each level of the raised character, they also aged by three years (a few powerful spells did that back then). There was one point of constitution loss, and I believe there was also a ressurection survival roll based on your constitution score to determine if it even works at all. Poisons and such weren't cured and all spells were lost.

I really like the harsher death consequences, I think it adds gravitas to the game and makes everything more exiting.

Example: Recent flame strike on Tza which he did nothing to deserve. If the dice had been meaner, then he's dead for no fault of his own. Why should he be punished?

But that was Endymion's fault, and when you think about it, is it really so good that you can think ''well, I don't really need to try too hard to prevent things like this, since if he gets someone killed, it doesn't really matter that much''

Also, you say why should Tsiena be penalised for having to raise someone, but I think that's a bad way of looking at it. I would say that it means something when she does ressurect another character. I implemented similar rules in my games when I DMed and the result was that if someone got ressed it was a big event, not just ''oh I died, what an inconvenience, I'm going to lose my Greater Cleave feat until I level up again, bummer''. If sacrifice is attatched to the act of ressurecting someone it is a lot more meaningful and makes it a much more Good act.

Now obviously I already know what you're thinking, it can cause all sorts of problems if somebody gets somebody else's character killed or if the DM doesn't follow the rules absolutely to the letter (for example I believe those Mezzoloths were required to roll initiative before an attack) and it results in a death, and i agree those are pitfalls. I'd say things like this work best in well established groups based around actual, out of game friendships, which I suppose with the addition of me and Robert this groups no longer is. Anyway I don't actually expect you to implement any of this, it's some pretty radical changes, still, that's my personal opinion on death penalties. I definately feel that 3e made death a bit of a joke and way too easy to come back from, making PCs past a certain level essentially immortal, which in my opinion robs the game of gravitas.

[illumination]

a good example of the fact that there's always varying points of view on this sort of thing and that there's good arguments either way.

all it comes down to is how much of a big deal do you want dying to be in the game, its a question of personal taste rather than what's perceived to be fair or not fair.

it also is the sort of thing that you might well want to change from campaign to campaign, depending on what your trying to achieve with it.

[^^Truth]

Alright. Here's what I think we do. We change several spells for a slight merge with second edition (not quite, but in feel), whilst adding RPable effects to the spells and then also lessen the effects of being brought back from the dead, so it's not as harsh.

1. Raise Dead.

Being rasied by Raise Dead penalises the subject by -500XP per character level (so 8th level being raised loses 4,000 XP). If this minus causes you to lose a level, then you do, if not, you don't. The cleric casting the spell takes -100XP per HD of the creature being raised (so for an 8th level person/creature, he loses 800 XP).

Should the cleric "lose" a level whilst paying for the raising in his own XP, it is instead added as a debt to be removed upon their next XP award. Basically the cleric can never lose a level bringing people back.

In addition, the subject is exhausted for 24 hours and the cleric is fatigued for 24 hours.

2. Resurrection.

Resurrection has the follow changes. A subject brought back by reincarnation loses -250XP per character level (so at 8th level, he would lose 2,000 XP). The cleric does not lose XP from casting resurrection.

In addition the subject of a resurrection is fatigued for 24 hours.

3. Reincarnation.

Subjects of reincarnation no longer lose any XP at all.



Potential Addons.

Perhaps the cleric casting resurrection is exhausted for 24 hours. A swap role for raise dead. Because of channelling far greater power.

[DarkAstartes]

That seems pretty good, I am definately in favour of some kind of hard cap on how many times a character can be brought back from the dead though. We're getting to pretty high levels now and without a cap we will all become functionally immortal before long. Tsiena is only 2 levels away from access to the Ressurection spell, at which point there will be literally 0 threat from any non TPK event.

[Tromador]

I guess I could be happy to take Baat's above as an acceptable compromise.

[JohnBoy]

Maybe she won't take the spell

But i'm happy with above

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