Tza'rok - Planar Tourist

[Tromador]

Tza'rok, Githzerai Rogue/Psion/Psionic Trickster
Society of Sensation


"How can you *know* yourself, without *knowing* the multiverse. The destination is unimportant, the journey is all that matters, until you find yourself and go home."

Statistics:

Str: 10
Dex: 20 (14+6)
Con: 12
Int: 15 (15-2+2)
Wis: 15 (10+2+2)
Cha: 16 (14+2)

Race: Githzerai
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral

XP: 68,337 (+9000 sacrificed to reduce ECL)
Class Levels: Rogue 4/Psion(Telepath) 5/Psionic Trickster 2 (ECL:+1) (Favoured Class: Rogue)
Hit Points : 46
Power Points : 52
Armour Class: 23 (Dex+5, Inertial Armour +6, Amulet Natural Armour +1, Robe Dodge +1)
Base Attack Bonus: +6

Fortitude Save: +3
Reflex Save: +13
Will Save: +10

Height: 6'3"
Weight: 165lb

Feats:

Weapon Finesse
Nimble Fingers
Improved Feint
Up The Walls
Deadly Precision (Reroll any '1' on sneak dice)
Speed of Thought

Abilities

• Trapfinding
• Sneak Attack +3d6
• Darkvision 120' (Racial + Faction)
• Evasion
• Trapsense +1
• Uncanny Dodge
• Has unlocked the first 3 circles of Zerthimon. +4 on saves vs Mind controlling/influencing effects.
• Ranged Legerdermain 1/day
• Celestial Gift, +1 Wisdom, +1 HP

Githzerai Racial Abilities
• +6 Dexterity, +2 Wisdom, –2 Intelligence: Githzerai are incredibly quick and agile, and they trust intuition more than logic.
• Medium: As Medium creatures, githzerai have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size.
• Githzerai base land speed is 30 feet.
• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Psi-Like Abilities: 3/day—inertial armor, psionic daze, catfall, concussion blast. Githzerai of 11th level also gain plane shift 1/day. Manifester level is equal to 1/2 Hit Dice (minimum 1st). The save DCs are Charisma-based.
• Inertial Armour: Githzerai can use psychic force to block an enemy's blows. This ability gives them a +4 armour bonus to AC as long as they remain conscious. This is the equivalent of a 1st level spell. (Counts as spell-like ability)
• +2 Psionic Power Points
• Power Resistance (Ex): A githzerai has Power resistance equal to its class levels +5.
• Automatic Languages: Common, Gith.
• Bonus Languages: Abyssal, Celestial, Draconic, Slaad, Undercommon.
• Favored Class: Monk.
• Level Adjustment: +2.

Skills:

• Balance (Dex) +0 (+5+2) = 7
• Bluff (Cha) +8 (+2) = 10
• Concentration (con) +12 (+1) = 13
• Craft:Artist (Int) +6 (+2) = 8
• Decipher script (Int) +7 (+2) = 9
• Diplomacy (Cha) +0 (+2+2) = 4
• Disable Device (Int) +11 (+2+2) = 15
• Escape Artist (Dex) +2 (+5) = 7
• Gather Information (Cha) +2 (+3) = 5
• Hide (Dex) +4 (+5) = 9
• Intimidate (Cha) +0 (+2+2) = 4
• Jump (Str) +0 (+0+2) = 2
• Knowledge: Arcana (Int) +2 (+2) = 4
• Knowledge: Psionics (Int) +1 (+2) = 3
• Knowledge: The Planes (Int) +3 (+2) = 5
• Listen (Wis) +2 (+2+1) = 5
• Move Silently (Dex) +4 (+5) = 9
• Open Lock (Dex) +7 (+5+2) = 14
• Search (Int) +5 (+2) = 7
• Sleight of Hand (Dex) +1 (+5+2) = 8
• Spellcraft (Int) +2 (+2) = 4
• Spot (Wis) +4 (+2+1) = 7
• Tumble (Dex) +9 (+5) = 14
• Use Magic Device (Cha) +4 (+3) = 7

Languages: Planar Common, Gith, Slaad

Psionic Powers:

1st Level

Conceal Thoughts
Endure Elements, Psionic
Far Hand
Mindlink
Psionic Charm
Vigor

2nd Level

Body Equilibrium
Detect Hostile Intent
Read Thoughts

3rd Level

Empathic Transfer, Hostile
Energy Bolt
Psionic Blast
Telekinetic Force

4th Level

Dimension Door, Psionic
Energy Adaptation


Notable Equipment:

Keen shortsword +5 (Ethereal), 2 hp/round bleeding damage

Rapier of Venom +1 (outlands)
"It allows the wielder to use a poison effect (as the spell, save DC 14) upon a creature struck by the blade once per day. The wielder can decide to use the power after he has struck. Doing so is a free action, but the poison effect must be invoked in the same round that the blade strikes."

Robe of the Second Circle
Can only be worn by a Githzerai who has understood the meaning of the Second Circle of Zerthimon, these robes are typically made for the Githzerai fighting monks.
Grants +4 competency bonus to balance, climb, jump, hide and move silently checks and a +1 dodge bonus to AC.

Baatorian Greensteel Thieves Tools
+5 to Search, Open Locks, Disable Device

Light crossbow
Hand of the Mage
Handy Haversack
- Contains paper, pastels, watercolours, thieves tools, spell books, extra ammo and various low value items.
+1 Amulet of Natural AC


Bio:

You have to understand, it's not greed, or lust. It's not about the accumulation of wealth, or strange liqueurs fermented in the 147th layer of the Abyss and it's certainly not about living some kind of bizarrely decadent lifestyle. It's all about the experience and the thrill of life. Or so it seems to me. You might see it differently, that's not for me to judge.

See, you got to learn to understand. Understanding of yourself, understanding of others. If some berk says that leaves are green on Arborea, what does that mean? You wanna truly know something, really *know* what you are on about. Only way is to be there, see it, do it.

We're all invisible dots, standing on invisible dots, infinitely small in the multiverse. You want the real dark? You want to know who you are and what you are, you gotta get out there and learn to understand it.

It's a journey, a hard road, perhaps the hardest of all roads. It's the only journey worth taking, though, cutter because at the end, when you've finally worked out what it's all about, when you *know* what YOU are all about, then you'll be surefooted on the next road, which leads to the final destination.

Rules:

Racial template taken as expanded psionics handbook.

2e Sensates are:
Benefits. All Sensates have highly attuned senses. They have infravision to 60 feet, regardless of race , and they gain a +1 bonus to all surprise rolls and saves vs. poison.

Restrictions: While not to the point of foolhardiness, Sensates are fascinated by new tastes, smells, and so forth. Whenever possible, they’ll seek out new experiences. In practice, they can’t refuse offers that could lead to these - a new wine, an exotic flower, or whatever. Only when faced with obvious deadly peril will they shun such temptations.

3.5 Conversion (suggested):
Benefits. All Sensates have highly attuned senses. They have darkvision to 60 feet, regardless of race, and they gain a +1 bonus to spot/listen rolls and saves vs. poison.

Restrictions: As 2e

4th Level, Wizard
+1 Int. +1 Knowledge (Arcana), +3 Decipher Script, +2 Spells (Endure Elements, Shield) +4(3+1)hp
5th Level, Rogue
+1 Disable device, +2 Hide, +2 Move Silent, +5 Tumble, +2(1+1) hp
6th Level, Rogue
New Feat: Improved Feint, +5 Bluff, +2 Tumble, +1 Spot, +1 Sleight of Hand, +1 Open Locks +4(3+1)hp
7th Level, Wizard
+2 Decipher Script, +1 Spellcraft, +1 Concentration +2(1+1) hp
*Special* Wizard class levels switched to Psion levels & +2 Wis/Cha due to campaign events.
8th Level, Psion 54587+7250(John)
+1 Int. +1 Knowledge (Psionics), +2 Concentration, +1 Craft (Art). +3 (2+1)hp
9th Level, Psion 61837+6000(Mike)
New Feats: Deadly Precision, Speed of Thought (Psion bonus feat), +4 Concentration, +3(2+1)hp. Sacrificed 9000XP to reduce ECL to +1.
10th Level, Psionic Trickster 58837+9500(Mike)
+2 Concentration, +2 Disable Device, +2 Open Locks, +5 (4+1) hp, Celestial Gift +1 wis, +1hp
11th Level, Psionic Trickster 68,337
+2 Concentration, +2 Disable Device, +2 Open Locks, +3 (2+1) hp

[illumination]

K.

Race. I see you have changed the psionic abilities to magic ones, which is better for you but fine by me. what im not sure about is you seem have not changed all of them, i guess im saying - which of the two are you going for; magic or psi, and if not all, why?

Sensates.

Hehe. theres only one half of the rules on there fella. you have converted the benefits but theres nothing stated about the downside! fair one.

ups and downs *should* balance, more or less. in fact, in 2e a lot of the upsides were not as good as the downside. doomguard springs to mind. anyway, we cant have an opinion on it until the whole shebang is on there, obviously. if you intend to keep the disadvantage as the same as 2e, then youll still need to stick it up there.

the PRC business is in email form, which im not sure is the best way.... ill read it now and put my tuppence worths on here in another post.

as a general niche and character in PS though, this is good.

a genuinely multiclassed gith mage/thief is a job in itself and is handy for DM's. the PC will certainly be useful and as it stands doesnt piss on anyones cornflakes.

ah, while im at it, seeing as im doing all this thinking about you, can you do my sign of one stuff for me?

[^^Truth]

Also, the Githzerai was 1/2 character level for spell-like powers.

[/url]

[illumination]

Gents,

The plan:

Play the arcane trickster class, which is a fun PrC combining thief and mage
talents.

See http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneTrickster.htm for details.

The requirement:

Lots of levels. 3 Levels of thief & 5 of wizard. In practice 4 of thief to
avoid multiclassing XP penalties. Basically 8 levels before starting the PrC.

The problem:

Been down this road before, with an interesting character concept that has
been just on the cusp of getting there when the campaign ends. Limnoch,
Celandina. Building characters around PrC requirements for a PrC I never get to
play.

The solution:

1: Why can't you just play a normal character?
They bore me. I need a quirky character so I can be thinking how my quirks can
be used to invent unusual solutions to the presented problems. You all know
this all too painfully

2: Reduce the PrC requirements?
Well, it's a pretty good PrC. Maybe it should be difficult to qualify for. That
is a decision for you guys not me.

3: Don't worry, we'll get to that level!
Do you really believe it? If you really really do, can I blame you if we don't?

4: I have a cunning plan!
My preferred solution Anybody got any bright ideas? I really don't want to
chuck the character concept away as I've spent the last 3 days close to
slitting my wrists for want of a character idea that appeals to me. Maybe you
have an alternate take on the thief/mage concept, or know of an easier PrC. I
realise having a +2 ECL race doesn't help, but it's all part of the mix, Gith
philosophy mixing with Sensate ideology.

Ta

Stef

ok, i hope you dont mind me doing that seeing as its only us on here anyway and it saves me time explaining things.

the arcane trickster. we meet again at last...

iain made one of those once and it was godlike. anyway, that withstanding you are hobbled for the first while by the ECL and starting requirements. what ill say is that for one, im up for increasing the starting level to 5th or more. which helps massively. dont know what the others think to that.

also, and more importantly, a thief/mage with the gith abilities is a decent all rounder type character as it is. saamech was a thief/mage and while you have to be wily and pick you battles somewhat it works very well. so my first instinct is to say i wouldnt worry about the PrC for now, you have plenty of time to think about it before they become available at -2ECL.

there are plenty of PrC's out there for mage/thieves, although it not being my speciality subject i couldnt suggest what ones you might want when it gets to the time of choosing. my main concern is that, as we well know, PrCs are often horribly balanced and i think it requires some self restraint in terms of judging what to bring to the table on here. for instance, there is a PrC that would have suited me perfectly for the druid (planar shepard) but unfortunately it was munchy as fuck so i chose not to bother you lot with it.

what am i saying. in fact, what are you asking for, im not sure. lowered requirements for the PrC? id prefer a higher starting level for all. and if im honest i have bad memories of that particular PrC, but looking at it the way it will work out for you it might not be too bad balance wise. i guess ill say that if its what you really want and it will make you enjoy the game more then go for it. but sadly i cant see much justification in lowering the starting level for a PrC that is iffy in the first place. maybe the group will be up for a starting level increase and that would solve the issue a fair bit???

[illumination]

oh.

giths are ugly cunts.

[Tromador]

Race. I see you have changed the psionic abilities to magic ones, which is better for you but fine by me. what im not sure about is you seem have not changed all of them, i guess im saying - which of the two are you going for; magic or psi, and if not all, why?

As I state in the bottom of my sheet, this is strictly MONSTER MANUAL template. Core rules dudes! I've DIRECTLY lifted the template from Monster Manual (Core Rulebook III). The MM template is simple spell templates and simple caster levels - (Ref: Monster Manual 3.5 p. 129-130). The abilities are to reflect the psionic powers of the Gith, but from a mechanics point of view are treated in all ways as a spell-like ability with charisma based saves as applicable.

Also, the Githzerai was 1/2 character level for spell-like powers.

In the Expanded Psionics Handbook, the template is slightly different to allow for a fully psionic campaign. You can use power points to boost the psionic skills, eg, extra AC on inertial armour, affect higher HD with daze, shatter is replaced with concussion blast, a psionic ranged attack with damage dependant on power points. Clearly this is more powerful and presumably the half level stated in EPH is to offset this. I'm not doing a conversion of this template as we have a perfectly good MM template.

I hope that answers your queries on the racial template

Sensates.

Hehe. theres only one half of the rules on there fella. you have converted the benefits but theres nothing stated about the downside! fair one.

ups and downs *should* balance, more or less. in fact, in 2e a lot of the upsides were not as good as the downside. doomguard springs to mind. anyway, we cant have an opinion on it until the whole shebang is on there, obviously. if you intend to keep the disadvantage as the same as 2e, then youll still need to stick it up there.

Roger that. I got them from a website, which I guess failed to give me the downsides as well. If someone has a proper list (or link to same) of upsides AND downsides, I will be pleased to correct this omission!

[Tromador]

ok, i hope you dont mind me doing that seeing as its only us on here anyway and it saves me time explaining things.

No, I don't mind in the least

...snipped words of wisdom above...

what am i saying. in fact, what are you asking for, im not sure.

I dunno, the chance to play it before we all end up in another bun fight. Starting at 5th level appeals to me, but Iain and Dennis wanted to start lower. There are other options. Let's leave it for now and I'll see how it goes. You are of course correct, a thief/mage of any colour does fit nicely with the group - I was really pleased to see it as an available speciality.

[Tromador]

The Society of Sensation
(Sensates)

Faction Philosophy. According to these folks, the multiverse is known by the senses - the only proofs of existence. Without experience, without sensation, a thing isn't. If a sod can't taste the soup, then it ain't soup. The only way to know anything for sure is to use the senses.

Look, it ain't that hard to understand. Which is real, a description of a rose or the rose itself? Only a barmy'd choose the description, which ain't real. It's got no smell, no thorns, no color. Picking a rose, that's real, and the way a body knows is by experiencing it. The senses are the only way to know the universe.

So some berk'll ask, "What's this got to do with universal Truth, the meaning of the multiverse?" Well, the chant is no one's going to know the big dark until they've experienced everything - all the flavors, colors, scents, and textures of all the worlds. Only when a body's experienced the whole universe does the great dark of it all finally get revealed. It may seem like an impossible task, but there just might be a way to bob the problem cheat the multiverse, as it were. It just might be that the multiverse doesn't exist beyond what a body can sense. The answer to what's over the next hill just might be "nothing."

Given that, the multiverse has limits, and a body can try to experience it all. A being's got to savor the intensity, explore the complexity. Don't just guzzle the wine - find all the flavors within it. Before a sod's all done, he'll learn the differences between Arborean and Ysgardian wine, know them by vintage, and even by the hand of the vintner. Only then do the secrets of the multiverse start to make themselves clear.

Primary Plane of Influence. The Sensates are strongest on Arborea, a plane of great beauty in all things. In Sigil, their headquarters is naturally the resplendent Civic Festhall.

Allies and Enemies. The Sensates and the Signers, both egocentric factions, do share points of agreement concerning their philosophies, and they often cooperate in their activities. Sensates are cordial to Guvners and Indeps, intrigued by their descriptions of things far away. However, they're opposed to the philosophies of the Doomguard, which sees worlds only as decaying objects.

Eligibility. The Society of Sensation is one of the most liberal of all factions. Anyone, of any race, class, or alignment, can join.

Benefits. All Sensates have highly attuned senses. They have infravision to 60 feet, regardless of race (if they already have it, the range is extended by 60 feet), and they gain a +1 bonus to all surprise rolls and saves vs. poison. Additionally, a Sensate has a 10% chance to detect lies by observing body language (20% against members of his own race).

Restrictions. While not to the point of foolhardiness, Sensates are fascinated by new tastes, smells, and so forth. Whenever possible, they'll seek out new experiences. In practice, they can't refuse offers that could lead to these - a new wine, an exotic flower, or whatever. Only when faced with obvious deadly peril will they shun such temptations.

[Tromador]

I think this is about done, subject to your final approval gents.

Additionally, for later spell picks, I'd like to submit the following for approval (from WotC Spell Compendium).

---
INSTANT LOCKSMITH
Divination
Level: Assassin 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round
You point at a mechanism, twist your hand, and make a clicking sound with your tongue. You now have a better idea of how the mechanism works.

You can make one Disable Device check or one Open Lock check in this round as a free action. You gain a +2 insight bonus on the check.
---
SNIPER’S SHOT
Divination
Level: Assassin 1, ranger 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 round

While muttering a short chant you focus your awareness, looking only at the areas of your foe that seem most vital to its survival.

Your ranged attacks made before the start of your next turn can be sneak attacks regardless of the distance between you and your target. You must still fulfill the other conditions for making a sneak attack against the target.

This spell doesn’t grant you the ability to make a sneak attack if you don’t already have that ability.
---

And a rules query not relevant yet, but for later reference -

Any spell which requires a hit roll (eg rays requring ranged touch attack, melfs etc) can make critical hits as any other attack. On the same logic is it reasonable to assume such a spell can do sneak attack damage, subject to fulfilling all other conditions for making a ranged sneak attack? (cf: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#aimingASpell)
I submit that if one can accidentally hit a tender spot, then sneak attack training should allow one to aim at it, as with any other ranged attack.

[^^Truth]

1st spell - Yes.

2nd spell - No.

Sneak attack spells - Yes.

That's my opinion anyway.

[illumination]

just guessing but i imagine one particular spell in mind might just be scorching ray - 4d6@3rd, 8d6@7th, 12d6@11th. no save. smash on a sneak attack onto that and we have, well, lots of d6, no save. the impromptu sneak attack ability the arcane trickster gets also comes in handy here so sneak attack requirements arent needed either. add spell #2 above and all the above can happen from max range.

funny that the most popular PrC's RP wise tend to be the ones that also allow that kind of damage dice related stacking!

all within the letter of the rules of course and i dont have the fight in me to object to it, all i can say is that as a DM i will try and keep the party balanced when its my turn, and the monsters will scale accordingly. PS is a good for DM's in this regard.

on the rules questions, i agree with iain (for once ). in the case of multi ray spell attacks i also think that the sneak attack counts only on the first ray, or we'll end up in 20d6+ territory.

[illumination]

one general observation on the character from a DMing perspective, is you have a particular mix of both hard to hit or damage. SR, AC, evasion etc. and inability to take damage. low hps due to class choice and ECL. add to that that it looks like you want to be doing mega blastyness in battle, and we're going to be playing high stakes combats.

im just trying to think about ways to be challenging to this character without killing it stone dead in a one-er. there is potential with builds like this that it works out:

unharmed, unharmed, unharmed, unharmed, unharmed, unharmed, dead.

i am not making the point as a criticism, it happens in less extreme examples in most campaigns, im making the point for other DM's to consider if they havent already. (sure they have.)

[Tromador]

One could indeed argue scorching ray with lots of sneak attack damage is big. This balances out somewhat by the simple fact that taking wizard levels lowers the sneak attack damage by virtue of having less rogue levels.

This is, however, the way a 2nd level rogue/mage turns out regardless of any PrC. Max hp are 10+CON.

I may or may not take arcane trickster in 8-9 levels or so. As you pointed out above, it's a long way off.

If I were a 2/2 rogue/mage, my hp would be max 20 instead of 12. 8 points isn't that big of a deal and I wouldn't have the armour class.

I think you want to look at the character as presented, Mike. Scorching ray, if I take it at all, is 4 levels in my future (2 more rogue, 2 more mage). Right now I do 1d6 damage, with 1d6 sneak, if I'm lucky, maximum.

Do you really need to worry about what I might achieve @ caster level 7th, or 11th? If I were to take Arcane Trickster, I'll achieve caster level 7th when I am L12, campaign at L14. At L14, a pure mage is dealing with limited wish spells and 14d6 chain lightning.

In fact yes... let's compare.

L14 Pure Mage
14d6 chain lightning automatic hit, multiple targets at 960' (400+40/level) range. Potentially 3/day.

OR

L14 Pure Rogue
Weapon + 7d6 @ 30' range, single target, requires hit roll, must flank. Unlimited/day

OR

L12 Tza'rok with scorching ray
7d6 + 3d6 (rogue sneak) +2d6 (trickster sneak) = 12d6, single target, requires hit roll, 30' range, must flank. Potentially 3/day (effective L8 mage).

Sheesh. I've presented a low damage weak ass rogue/mage who even at high level will be outdamaged by any ordinary mage and you're actiing like I'm trying to make some kind of twinked out damage nightmare. I don't think you're being very fair in your assessment, however if you really hate this character I will start over with something else. There's no point me having a PC which rankles with any given DM.

Yes - only the first ray is reasonable.

[illumination]

right, i made a mistake by kicking off a big dice/rules type debate, which im not really interested in and could go through argument and counter argument for days. id lose anyway because i dont know my shit.

what im saying is, as far as im concerned crack on with it as i have no idea where you are going to end up in the end. but i guess i was right bout scorching ray being on the menu eh? theres no need to get sensitive about it bruv.

my main point, which you seem to have ignored really is that there are some peculiarities with this character and that there is potential for unforeseen things occurring when you have synergies like these stacking up they way your stacking them. its VERY hard to say how this PC will work out at this stage, a lot depends on how you advance it.

as i said, whatever happens the DMs will have to try and keep the party balanced (including buffing this dude if it comes to it.) - whatever individuals decide on. i think thats what we agreed.

[Tromador]

*sigh*

Ok mate - I don't wanna fall out over this (or whatever), I really don't - I will say it was you wot raised the issue of scorching ray, so excuse me all over the place if I pointed out that the numbers don't stack up on *your* example. I may take it, I may not and if I do, there shouldn't be drama about it, told you sos, nodding heads, wagging beards. What spells I choose will entirely depend on what spellset seems more useful in 4 levels time, be it offensive magic, utility, buffs whatever.

The simple fact is that I like to play unconventional characters, be that via PrC, or unusual multiclass, or wierd ass feats or something else which is off the wall and different. That keeps the game nice and fresh for me as I then am learning how to play something new.

I too have no real idea where this is going and really that is part of the fun for me. Unfortunately it always seems to lead to controversy of one kind or another.

Because my choice is poorly understood, it tends to spark debate with an ever present fear of it becoming an overpowered godly character, when I just want to play it and enjoy it. By the time these debates are moved along, most of the soul has been sucked out of the character, as is the case with this one and I am now much in two minds about if I should play something else and if so what.

I did have a backup character concept of a warlock/thief to try next if Tza'rok ended up dead due to crap hp or was otherwise unplayable - which thought, not that it should matter, prompted my question about rays and sneak attacks. Now I'm not so sure, as doubtless the invocations will be scrutinised for balance and messed about with.

At the end of the day I'm not unreasonable, if a character turns out to be overpowered, I'm quite happy to discuss reasonable means of dealing with it. I invest too much thought into my characters not to.

[illumination]

theres a lot of answers to questions there that no-one has asked. not sure why, but i guess ill have to accept that you just want to talk about powergaming or PrCs or what have you. lets just say it for the record, as there was the anger of the perennially mistreated in your last two messages:

i have not suggested above that anything is banned or prohibited. and i apologise if by wondering out loud about sneak attacking mages that i caused offence.

but, perhaps for another day, im wondering what the best way of doing all this is in future. seeming as it seems to get upsetting for all concerned? ^^ allow everything in any book and sort later? dunno, just throwing it out there as a less forum heavy option. this offer, counter offer, righteous anger, more righteous anger, apologies, etc set up we have at the moment doesn't seem to be terribly efficient.

anyway! moving on. session starts tomorrow, as soon as anyone is available, i have made some preliminary session notes so have half a chance of being more organized than usual.

oh. PS, as a method of solving a dming problem for me, i was going to suggest that this PC is already acquainted with Nyol. some time together in a githyanki cell? helps if so.

[Tromador]

It's hard not to bite when presented with

"funny that the most popular PrC's RP wise tend to be the ones that also allow that kind of damage dice related stacking!"

In the context of my PC and potential PrC. Smiley or no - and when you say

"add to that that it looks like you want to be doing mega blastyness in battle"

in the following post then yes, I do feel I'm getting hit with the twink stick.

So right, I'm going to get this off my chest now, so I'm not stewing on it tomorrow - aimed clearly not at just Mike.

Yes, I think this group does perenially persecute wizards.

When I played Celandina there were a series of discussions which generally ended up as 'not changing it for this campaign but we'll sort it out for the next one'. As the wizard in the group and poster child for all that was apparently wrong with the class, that was basically not fun.

Summoning has been broken (on account of some specialist summoner wizard not even mine, but it got hated on) down to where I don't want to use it, not again, not after I had to go through it with Limnoch, who let's remember was himself a great cause of controversy cos I wanted a quirky skeleton butler and a couple of unusual feats.

So, then I put together a pretty weak ass character. And I expect to have to justify it and my expectations are duly rewarded. I mean come on guys, I take a racial template from Monster Manual, explain in my first post that it's from Monster Manual, because I expected to get pulled up on it and guess what - despite me referencing the appropriate rulebook, I'm still expected to answer questions on the subject. Couldn't you look it up instead of querying me?

Arcane Trickster fine, I appreciated what was said, over that, please move on. I have.

I then look at other interesting possibilities on spells which work in the thief/mage context and I am met with posts which do, I'm sorry, they do, imply that I'm powergaming.

"all within the letter of the rules of course and i dont have the fight in me to object to it"

What shall I infer from comments like that? Mike, with respect, you're not wondering out loud anything, you're poking the ant hill.

Right -

I'm fine with knowing Nyol in advance, but does it have to be a githyanki cell? I'm really not looking for a dark shadow in my character's past.

[#1!]

Just wanted to point out that you can't actually flank if you're not in range to threaten the target (though I think there are feats that address this in some supplements or something).

So the only way that spells are going to be applicable for sneak attacks are if the target is denied their Dex/surprised/prone/etc. Or if they're touch attacks/done in melee range.

[Tromador]

Yup - checking this it appears one can only flank if making a melee attack (even more restrictive than threatening), so a ray spell even at point blank range can't flank.

Ranged attacks in general then can only be sneak if within 30' of a dex denied target.

[^^Truth]

For the record. I'm fine with this PC. I don't particular see it as OP at all really, all things considered.

It looked like it might become that when the first traces of race/class/PrC combo came to light, but to be frank, it's not.

However, Mike is correct in one way, that these type of PCs are usually unharmed 90% of the time, then suddenly drop down dead, which is a problem for DMs.

However with 6+1d4+CON there's not too much you can do about that. I guess if they AC and stuff were lowered.. I dunno, maybe a DM woudln't have to try so hard to hurt the fucker? Generally speaking stuff that hits AC20 about 20-30% of the time (which is about right? Depends on other PCs) may well gank this PC in a oner. Again however, what can do you do, that's the curse of ECL.

The problem will, as I see it, be much like DoD, but in a different way.

Jonas : AC 19 - HP 40-50 - Damage : Low
Mung Daal : AC 10 - HP 30-40 - Damage : High.

The above I see a perfectly well balanced, it's why me and Zert did this together (cos the warrior-types are important to get right).

Nyol (?) : AC 12/14 - HP 30-40 - Damage : Very Low.
Tza'rok : AC 20 - HP 8-12 - Damage : Medium

Does that work? For now, yeah, I guess, but Tza'rok HP are "SO" much lower than the rest of the group. Much like Lilith, however, Lilith had AC 10, so there were no illusions of being tough, also she had no melee ability thus more temptation to get near stuff that may kill her in a oner. I suppose it just has to be kept in mind.

As a note and I'll put this on the main topic page too. I want to say that the first 3 levels everyone has (1-3) are maximum HP and you roll after then.

So Zert will be 30+1d10. Myself and Mike 24+1d8 and Trom you will have max and one more dice (thief I guess, heh) at max, then you start rolling.

Helps survibability and I want this campaign to both last and work.

[Tromador]

Well, there is a comparison with Lilith, which is obvious, though Lilith was 5th level and Tza'rok is 2nd (or 4th if you like). Like you, I'm taking the risk and hope that he'll live long enough to not roll a train of 1's like Lilith did and thus gain a bit more sturdiness. Gonna be pragmatic about it and if he dies he dies.

Also, I'm sure DM's won't tailor monsters to overcome high AC just because I've got it.

I found an article on sneak attacks, we've interpreted it correctly on all counts.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040309a

if you can be arsed.

Btw - total concealment from the target denies dex. This includes invisibility, or if the target is blind, so if you melee types could gouge out folks eyes and stuff I'd be grateful.

[^^Truth]

No, DM's won't tailor it because you have high AC.

They'll tailor it because Zert has a high AC, you have a high AC and Mike shapeshifts into something with a high AC.

Take a random bad guy with BAB +5. (about a lowish medium encounter BAB for this level I reckon).

Mung Daal : Hit 75% of the time.
Nyol : Hit 55-65% of the time.
Jonas : Hit 30% of the time.
Tza'rok : Hit 25% of the time.

That is, just the way it is. If he does 1d6+1 damage, then Tza'rok can take some hits, but Jonas will never die. If he does 2d6+2 damage, then Jonas could get hurt, Mung will be badly injuried in all likely hood, Nyol the same as Mung, but less so and Tza'rok would be one shot in all likelyhood.

Just the way shit balances. We'll cross the rivers when we come to them anyway

[^^Truth]

The above numbers are slightly fubar because I didn't calculate 1 = always miss, so reduce everyone by 5%

[Tromador]

As I say, if he dies, he dies. I don't plan to get too attached for at least a little while.

[Tromador]

Slightly edited to reflect correct restrictions/benefits from 'A Player's Guide To The Planes' instead of some website I found.

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