D&D - Sword Coast - Adminstration in Red Larch (OOC)

[illumination]

OOC only thread.

*All characters are now effectively royalty within the bounds of Red Larch. Taverns do not charge, goods and services are all free within the means of the vendor.

*All characters are well known, feared and hated in equal measure by the population.

*10 Servants (Slaves) have been sent to the Monestary, to make up a 'staff' of sorts. Includes a blacksmith, stablehand, cook, cleaners, etc.

*Blacksmithing tools and several weeks provisions are now stocked at the Monestary, along with riding horses.

*Looting the keep has yielded 8000gp. 1000 for Kota and Sammech, 2000 for Arman, Limnoch and Chell.

Other business:

Limnoch has 3 tendays of time in which to potentially create magical items. Trom, could you list what is potentially on the menu, so it can be considered. Cheers.

Stuff I forgot!

* Malaki is now running illicit caravans though the monestary, although you have no idea what it may be. He sends word that as soon as you have 'soldiers' there and a wage bill, he will begin paying their wages. (through you)

* In addition, Malaki has sent some tradesmen/crafters to the monestary, and a slow and gradual restoration is being performed, from the inside out. (at this rate it would be about 5 winters before it was complete.)

* The bandits under your alliance have done well preying on refugees, the economics of the situation too has swelled their numbers to 20, and they are currently wintering through the bad weather in the monestary.

[Tromador]

Magical Menu of Magical Items.

All items subject to availability of suitable amounts of appropriate materials. Firstly, any item to be enchanted must be of Masterwork Quality. Secondly, amounts of costly material components must also be obtained, either locally, or imported from other settlements in the local area.

During the 'downtime' Limnoch is considered caster level 8 and can enchant:

Any armour or shield to +1 for a cost of 1000gp.
Any armour or shield to +2 for a cost of 4000gp.

Any weapon to +1 for a cost of 2000gp.
Any weapon to +2 for a cost of 8000gp

Additionally, any other effect which requires caster level 8 can be added. Please check d20 srd or similar appropriate sources.

e.g. Speed: When making a full attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it - for a cost of 32,000gp.

Note that most effects require a particular spell, which Limnoch will either need to already have in his book, or be otherwise supplied at potential additional cost, such as a scroll. (e.g. for the speed effect, the spell haste is required).

Prices shown are "Base Prices". Cost of materials required is half the base price. Individual characters are advised to negotiate discounts with Limnoch. Time required is 1 day per 1000gp of "Base Price" (e.g. 4 days for a shield +2).

Kota: Limnoch will perform a basic enchantment (to +1 or +2, if you can afford it) at cost price (i.e. half base price), in return for you making a suit of zombie skin leather armour. Limnoch will provide the zombie skin. Masterwork is preferred if possible.

[The Dark Power]

Cool, yep Kota is happy to make masterwork zombie armour in exchange for enchanting his armour to +2 (at a cost of 2000gp). It's already masterwork.

Total cost to Kota is 2,150gp then, the 2k for his armour and 150gp for the masterwork section of Limnoch's armour.

I assume I don't need to pay material costs as there's a ready supply of zombie flesh, but lemme know if that's not the case.

I hadn't realised that weapon bonuses cost twice as much as armour, I guess cos you get the effect on BaB and dam?

[Tromador]

Very well.

Kota has first dibs, on account of making Limnoch's armour - That's 8 day's work. Kota, in line with Limnoch's magical signature, after enchantment, small subtle pieces of your armour (zombie hide strap, maybe or a bone buckle) appear to be made of undead components. They are not generally obvious, nor do they have any in-game effect, but they may twitch.. from time to time.

Limnoch has second dibs, on account of being Limnoch and enchants his new armour to +2. Another 8 days. Limnoch's armour has no special undead components, on account of being wholly made of undead. It twitches rather a lot. It's quite unnerving, but he seems happy.

16 days down. 14 remain.

[The Dark Power]

Heh, cool. Kota's armour is already engraved with scenes from hell so that'll fit in nicely :0)

Cheers!

[Tromador]

Correction: Enchanting each armour is a matter of four day's work, so eight in total, leaving twenty-two.

[illumination]

always the spoilsport i know, but havent we got a little bit ahead of ourselves here? perhaps another look at my post is required. ^^
maybe i should have said 'potentially' once more.

also, kota, you have to demonstrate how long it takes you to create MW leather with your craft skill. im prepared given the PC's background for you to work with crawling zombie flesh at no penalty.

also, tools for all the above are not required as they can be 'borrowed' in town.

my thoughts as a DM to be honest are to say that in these 3 tendays that limnoch can source special magical materials for one item, and have materials for one more en route. (say delivery in 2 tendays, and @ 75% cost rather than 50%, given the circumstances)

caveat:

costs and availablity depend somewhat on what kind of items are being attempted. the more exotic, the tougher it gets to source the wyverns teeth, newts gonads, etc etc.

given the above, and within the rules, nominate what you wanna do and we'll make a call on it. i dont want to trawl though every last rule on this checking so a lot is on trust. you can thank iain's watchful eye for pointing out the complication with the MW leather, but, you really should have picked that up yourselves. it doesnt exactly fill me with confidence in the self regulation.

[Tromador]

it doesnt exactly fill me with confidence in the self regulation.

Can't speak for the crafting as that is Joe's baby, however to the best of my knowledge the magic rules are correctly quoted. Everyone makes mistakes, however, all of us. Nobody is trying to pull a fast one here.

Mike, as incumbent DM you are in the hot seat with the position of power and on record as hating the current magic item creation methods. Your post rather suggests you are squiriming in your boots with this and looking to find ways to regulate beyond the scope of the existing rules. Yes, more exotic ingredients are more expensive, hence a +2 sword is already 4 times the price of a +1 sword.

Given our proximity to Waterdeep, The City of Splendours, you may wish to look at availability of goods to be shipped in with a more neutral view.

In any case, it would be more useful to see a GP value of available materiél so that it can be usefully assigned to projects. Just saying 1 item covers anything from a +1 shield @ 500gp to a +2 Sword of Frost @ 9000gp and beyond.

Delivery of items in 2 tendays is a bit pointless really, if we are leaving Red Larch with no idea when or if we will return. Given our track record of not stopping for several adventures on end having large amounts of cash tied up in unused goods seems silly.

When I took this feat in good faith, nobody said anything about resistance to the using of it. There's nothing even in the proposed future rules for debate on this subject. I've used this feat (so far) once in the campaign to make a single +1 item. I'm starting to feel (and I think justifiably) a bit disgruntled at what I'm seeing here.

[illumination]

it is true that i am on the record as the most sceptical with regard to magic item creation in 3.5, i also know that i am out of sync with most peoples position on availability of magic (as a commodity) generally in fareun, which is an uncomfortable position. i am not enjoying at all the place that these conflicting factors put me in as sitting DM, but i resent any aspersion that what im doing is not in good faith.

im not interested in a lengthy debate on the specifics, but im puzzled about what is unreasonable in the view that with three tendays marooned in a looted red larch, at 50% population, snowed in for the last month, in a region still paralysed by a shocking winter, that getting hold of magical materials may be tricky and or more expensive than usual. (or impossible???!!!)

frankly, if i was solo DM it wouldnt happen at all. what im going to do however is ask iain to do the DMing on this thread, as if the magic item creator thinks the DMing is on the basis of an agenda, anything i come up with isnt likely to be good enough.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

separately from the above, what we have are differing philosophies about game management in conflict. trom prefers a 'loose' game, where people are generally allowed to get on with it, and generally get what they want. i have sympathies with that, as i hold what may appear to be conflicting desires to:

a) have as few rules as possible as a principle.

and

b) maintain game balance.

when we have bright, resourceful players, capable of mining the books for new and powerful stuff to add to their PCs, unfortunately the rules can become the last resort for a DM to turn to in order to preserve some game balance. some players work harder on making their PCs uber than others. the problem for DMs is that if you allow one person to streak ahead, the others enjoy the game less and resentment begins as the uber PC proceeds to do everything better than everyone else. (celandina)

IMO the best way for this to be dealt with, is for players to exercise some self restraint, and ask the question, 'is this balanced?' or even 'am I taking the piss?'. its worth noting that if there were no balancing done at all limnoch would have 4 th level cleric spells as well by now.

so, just a little insight into the thought behind the madness. it remains my solidly held view, that if we go with full scale production of bland +2 magic kit for all at bargain prices, that we will end up with a less credible campaign. and less enjoyable, (for me at least.)

iain, over to you.

[Tromador]

I similarly resent any implication that I am power gaming. I take a feat, a simple feat, out of the standard rules on the d20 website and hit a mountain of resistance to its use.

I do not suggest you are biased. You are biased. On the other hand, equally I do not suggest you are not acting in good faith, but suggest you ask yourself that question. If you are then happy with your rulings, that is also fine with me.

Celandina, as you raise that case in point I think was on about level 2 of her PrC when the campaign concluded. In fact, due to the necessary sacrifices to take the PrC, she was using lower power magic than she could otherwise have obtained.

To be honest, I had primarily taken this feat to ensure access to undead armours for Limnoch - I felt it inappropriate to demand that DMs make special allowances for obscure items to randomly drop in loot or whatever - however it's a class ability that should be able to be used. In the interests of keeping the peace, I'm prepared to completely drop the feat, and accept a general ban on item creation and select a replacement feat for use from now on.

This on the understanding that such items will be considered to exist in the world and have a chance of popping up in future games like any other item.

As regards class selection, yes I prefer to find interesting alternates to the basic classes. It is always interesting to explore new and different styles and abilities. As regards True Necromancer (http://baatorian.ripz.org/DnD%203.5%20Books/Supplements/Races/Monsters/Libris%20Mortis.pdf page 51) whilst it was looked at, I wholly accepted a ruling that it was unbalanced.

As for flexibility, or lack thereof, Iain's hp are a good case in point. Limnoch has just levelled to L9 and will have nearly as many HP as Arman! This may be seen in some quarters as further evidence of my powergaming styles, however simple maths will indicate Limnoch has wholly average hp for his level and that it is Arman who is struggling (with a succession of low rolls). If I were DM, I would be positively balancing Arman's hp in an upward direction.

So, there's my offer. Drop the lot. I simply wish to be able to play any given character to the full extent of their abilities. I don't think this is unreasonable.

[The Dark Power]

it doesnt exactly fill me with confidence in the self regulation.

Funny I should feel the need to quote that bit too.....

I should point out that Sorscha had few magical items - a scroll and a healing potion. Kota, up til recently had no magical items. He's now got the ring of the ram and either has, or will hopefully soon have +2 half plate.

That doesn't strike me as very many, and I've a feeling all the other PCs have more and higher powered items than both my characters to date.

Self regulation OK so far? ;0)

Allow me to explain away my mistake, or get out of the fact you've caught me cheating depending on the standpoint from which you began ;

Basically, I have read the rules on craft, but can't remember what they are. I just figured it wasn't unreasonable to be able to create such a suit within a three week period, particularly as no forge would be required.

I think Mike has a point on Red Larch not being the ideal spot for creating numerous items, so I've no real drama delaying the process til we get back to the abbey or wherever.

I also think Trom has a point in that he took the feat assuming he'd have no dramas in it's use and is now encountering resistance from one person who doesn't like the way it's being used.

This is really our collective fault for not discussing the issue beforehand.

On the wider issue of availability of / creating magical items in general. My preference has always been towards lower magic campaigns (Ravenloft and Middle Earth campaigns for example - for Troms ref, these were both low magic campaigns with mid powered magical items cropping up in game as unique items with a backstory and history).

However, they were solo campaigns that I was running and it was made clear to the PCs the score before we began.

I think the current situation has cropped up due to the multi-DM setup ad I don't see how it can really be resolved to everyones satisfaction. I think the best thing to do is allow item creation when it's feasible to do so and then have a wider discussion once this campaign is wound up.

[illumination]

i apologise for my lack of tact re the leather armour, ott from me really. these rules are a mutherfucker and i dont really get em either.

ill leave room for iain to reply on the wider debate, but perhaps for now we should stick to the basics of this current situation:

the fact is that the sitting DM has been asked to make a ruling on what is possible in these three tendays and the decision was disagreed with. therefore, we're going to arbritation with a neutral party. seems like a sensible way of moving forward.

[Tromador]

Well, I apologise too. I am feeling a level of frustration and it's probably not simply in terms of item creation. With the insinuation that something underhand was happening in terms of armour creation it became hard to see the rest of what is probably reasonable in a reasonable context.

Wizards require time to do things. Simply copying a new spell (from another spellbook or from a scroll) into a spellbook is two full days of game time, assuming suitable scribing materials and work environment are available. A group that never stops is bad news for a wizard. We sat on a pile of scrolls which could have been in Lim's spellbook and then copied out again for Saamech if only we had stopped. In the end, Saamech now has the scrolls. I don't object to this treasure division, however it's easy to see how things may have happened differently if only the party had stopped for a few days.

I had the same problem in the last campaign with Celandina, despite Mike's comments of her uberness, was not allowed (house rule last campaign) to take free spells on levelling. As a consequence, she was nearly level 7 before she got her first third level spells and finding the time to scribe those into her spellbook was again difficult and in the end had to be glossed over by the DM lest she never have them.

Then we hit this situation and it's "Ah.. no.. we're stopped, but you still can't do stuff cos of the environment..." and I'm howling with frustration and if you'll forgive me, some of this frustration is coming out.

It's very easy to screw a wizard, they accumulate "stuff to do" that requires stops between adventures, whilst the rest of the party often wishes to carry on.

Ultimately, I suppose, it's up to the group. Either they make time for Limnoch to do his admin and go to places where suitably exotic components can be had or they don't. Experience from earlier games say that they won't and that will lead to a less versatile party wizard and more frustration for me trying to be useful in restricted circumstances.

[illumination]

aw. we're all friends again. its obvious there is a lot to work out for the next campaign, and perhaps we can get to some kind of compromise by unanimous agreement this one. (im thinking some kind of trade off where things take much longer but items can be more interesting and unique)

restricting resources and time as was done in the previous camp is another method iain used to control potential magic sword spammage, thats all that was happening there and i can understand why he did it. but i think we need a more inclusive solution we all like. (or at least hate less)

as it happens my view is that as PCs enter the higher levels time periods between adventures should get greater and greater. since i began this stint we have smashed through plenty, and if you all dont do anything weird, there will likely be more time after the current project.

this is an issue. potentially a divisive one obviously. but there is no question of moving the goalposts after the event, barring an entended stay in a mountain cave or a siege of the town, you'll get the lot eventually, for better or worse.

[Tromador]

Pfft.. We are always friends, that's obvious on account of the bickering.

As for previous campaign, I don't know that any of us could create magic items, but I do recall conversations about not having spells, with Iain commenting we'd not killed any wizards to steal spells from, with my retort being that he chose what monsters we fought.

However, this is a digression. Moving forward, we can look at alternate means of item creation for the future and I'm more than happy to enter into a dialogue so that anyone who wants it will know in advance what the score is.

For the purposes of Red Larch, I do think it's silly to send out for goods which will take 2 tendays to arrive. It's more than likely we won't be there.

So, the question really is what is immediately available (if anything). You say 1 item, but the price range on that is huge and I'm sure you don't intend an item worth 18,000gp.

[illumination]

we'll work it out before start of session, wont take 5mins.

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