Re: Random CoC Rules Questions

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Also, change that picture or I will delete your post count

[#1!]

Homophobe

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YOU HAVE FIVE MINUTES TO COMPLY!

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FFS. Do you want to find a bigger fucking picture? You shit-eating arabic cunt.

Plx change, it's annoying.

[#1!]

Was just a jokey placeholder pic. Didn't think you'd be such a Nazi.

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You must have missed my picture and forum title.

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ZOMG! How long has this been going on for>?!>?!

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About three minutes.

Better, but it's still too large, it spaces my shit out crazily.

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Don't worry dude, I ain't gunna stick with anything this big/annoying.

I'm just keeping it to annoy you until I get something better in a few minutes

[^^Truth]

Annoyance ends with zero post count

Keep it up, you're at 199 and it's tempting, but 249 or 299 would be even more cruel and I'm a patient man.

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Wait, what's wrong with the one I have up now? It's just as large as Mike's old one.

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Nah, it's slightly larger, not by much, but by enough to give me a bottom scroll bar. I hate bottom scroll bars.

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Also, I never said there was anything wrong with it, it's not massively annoyingly larger, I was just reacting to what you said.

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Right. Well, I change it anyhow.

The more you know and all.

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Sure, sure. I liked the chick in the rainbow body stocking

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You would.

Perv.

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Okay, posting here in reply to the rule adjustments in the CoC gamelog thread.

1. For 9mm pistols and other guns that have a RoF not determined by burst or FA capabilities, perhaps you may consider a -5% modifier per shot fired due to recall. It could potentially be doubled for heavier weaponry.

2. So when do people die? I'm not too fond of this potentially, as one of the reasons I like CoC is the extreme lethality, as opposed to D&D. Naturally being repeatedly hit in the foot with a baseball bat shouldn't kill you, so makes enough sense in theory.

3. If you're going to stack medicine and first aid together, then you should consider situational modifiers, such as bad tools, dirty conditions and so on (which you probably are anyway). Otherwise it'll be virtually impossible to loose people considering investigators COULD in theory reach a skill of 190%

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Overal I'm fine with all of the above, just wanted to say that shit. I have a few suggestions, mostly discussed, myself which I'll throw out to the general population.

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A. Wound modifiers. They basically seperate games like Shadowrun and Vampire from games like D&D. I'm pretty surprised they're not included really. Something like -2% to checks per point of damage sustained wouldn't be over the top, but may make a difference.

B. Hit Locations. May work pretty well in conjunction with the "not definitely dead at 0, -1 or -2 thing". Pretty easy on a 2d6 scale, could convert to 1d100 if need be.

2 : Head : +2 damage
3 : Random*
4 : Left Arm : -2 damage
5 : Left Leg : -1 damage
6 : Left Torso
7 : Abdomen
8 : Right Torso
9 : Right Leg : -1 damage
10 : Right arm : -2 damage
11 : Random*
12 : Head : +2 damage

Random Locations* - If appriopriate 3 = Left, 11 = Right.
1 : Eye : Eyesight mods : +1 damage
2 : Hand : Drop held items : -3 damage
3 : Vein : Bleed effect : +1 damage
4 : Foot : Reduced movement : -2 damage
5 : Gentials : Nausea : +1 damage
6 : DM discretion.

It might look complicated/hard to memorise but it's really not.

C. Consider several new skills, or at least allow players to purchase them (Imagine you would anyway, but legit is legit).

Athletics : Overal level of fitness. Would be used for long demanding actions, such as marathons, chopping down trees or prolonged melee combat.

Gymnastics : Balance and coordination. Would be used for actions such as tightrope walking, escaping a grapple without brute strength and fitting through gaps a little too small for you.

Sense Motive : Unless psychology does the same thing.

D. Appearence does nothing at all.

Strength : Increases melee damage.
Constitution : Increases HP.
Size : Increases melee damage and HP.
Dexterity : Determines base DODGE and initiative.
Intelligence : Determines IDEA.
Power : Determines SANITY, LUCK and MP.
Education : Determines skill points, hobby points and KNOW.

Appearence : Does nothing.

There are naturally positives to having a high appearence, but it'd be nice to have something on paper to prove it is actually having an effect.

[#1!]

I like and agree with most of what you've said. Especially the wound modifiers.

For the hit locations, there should be some sort of penalties for having wounds in your legs/arms/etc. Obviously you didn't write that shit in cuz you were just giving rough examples....I assume. Maybe you just duuuumb =)

I think sense motive is covered pretty well by psychology and maybe some situational skills like spot/listen to see/hear changes in people's body language/tone of voice/etc.

I didn't really notice it before, but you're right about Appearance. It's basically like Charisma in D&D: mostly useless. Maybe just have it give situational bonuses to some social skills (persuasion and so on). In the campaign we're in right now, I highly doubt anybody but Ingrid being affected by the lack of Appearnce shit. But it's good to sort this out ASAP anyway for future characters.

I don't entirely know what you mean by your #2 point about "potential death." Clarifiy?

[^^Truth]

Well yes. I didn't write that up, but yes I apply penalties for being damaged in the arms/legs. I use this system for shadowrun, so it didn't feel right putting up the penalties without a lot of thought to it.

The damage is about the same between the two games, so the modifiers make enough sense regardless.

Being shot in the legs have an increased knockdown chance and being shot in the arms has a decent chance - depending on the damage - to drop what's being held.

Appearence isn't "mostly" useless, it's "completely" useless. It does nothing mechanics wise. It's fine DMs using it as a base and I'm okay with that, but as a player it's nice to see some form of mechanical benefit that says "I'm good at this" otherwise you always end up feeling robbed when it comes to charisma/appearence stats.

WoD and SR got around this with the dice stacking system.. so that social checks are based on your social skills, thus making them useful. I.E. horrible ugly cunts with super social skills just aren't as good as lovely beautiful people with super social skills. Unfortunately the percentage and numerical based systems (CoC/D&D/ETC) don't work like that at all and offer no advantage.

D&D has tried to correct this slightly, but it doesn't go far enough. A social rogue in D&D with CHA 7, will be a lot more successful than a lovely bright cleric with CHA 17, which both isn't right and is because of the system.

I was proposing a CHARM stat, which'd work like KNOW, IDEA, LUCK and SANTIY... that it'd be Appearence x5 base and would apply in a lot of social situations where no other skill is relavant or obvious. Still.

As for point #2. See Mike's post, it's in the CoC gamelogs post, first post.

[^^Truth]

Also. I've have completely stolen the way WoD initiative works and am using it myself and will be using it for all sessions I run for any game.

I really think we should use this initaitive system as it's really nice and works in a lovely smooth manner, unlike pretty much ALL other initiative systems.

It's pretty simple really.

1. Roll initiatives as normal and determine order.

2. Reverse order and declare actions from slowest to highest.

3. Run actions from highest to slowest as normal.

Now, #2 is the important part that's different from all other initiative systems, it may create a SLIGHT amount of extra time, but is in my opinion completely worth it.

It's been an issue of mine that with certain builds/classes it's almost BEST to go last, so that you can sum up the combat round and react to what has happened. But combat isn't supposed to be like that, it's supposed to be fluid, slow people aren't supposed to be able to react to what fast people do, completely the opposite! Fast people should be able to reac to slow people.

I have a great example, which I've told two of you which I'll reproduce, again, here as the best explaination.

Shadowrun - Combat - 4 people fighting in a public toilet.

Initiative.

Crowbar Ork - 3
Five-O - 4
Baseball Bat Ork - 6
Ash - 9

Description : Crowbar Ork is trying to kill Five-O but very badly wounded. Five-O is hurt too but trapped in a cubicle, but now has a pistol. Baseball Bat Ork has Ash grappled and is beating her senseless. Ash is pinned down and has almost escaped but not quite, but is 1 point of damage from unconsciousness or death.

Actions - Being decided upon.

Crowbar Ork - Tries to flee from Five-O to save his life.

Five-O - Will now head out of the cubicle since Crowbar Ork has left him alone and will put two rounds into Baseball Bat Ork to save Ash.

Baseball Bat Ork - Sees the threat from Five-O and since he has Ash grappled, will use his action to lift her up using her as a human shield. NOTE: At this point Five-O is now going to almost definitely shoot Ash instead of Baseball Bat Ork.

Ash - (now shitting herself) - Decides that trying to escape from the grapple is of atmost importance, since Five-O is about to put several rounds into her chest.

Actions - Being rolled and explained

Ash - Rolls her escape artist check, succeeds and manages to slip from Baseball Bat Orks grasp.

Baseball Bat Ork - Has his action rendered basically useless by a faster opponent and can only wince as a gun is leveled at him.

Five-O - Says something cliche and puts two rounds point-blank into Baseball Bat Ork.

Crowbar Ork - Attempts to drag himself out of the toilets (Five-O had dealt him 6 damage in his left leg and 5 in his right with the hit location system, thus he can't walk).

Result.

The faster opponents got to view the battlefield before acting, thus making a both smoother and more realistic and enjoyable exprience. If Ash had failed her escape artist, Five-O would have put those bullets into her instead of Baseball Bat Ork.

Baseball Bat Ork had his defensive action cancelled, because Ash could react to what he did since she was quicker in initiative. Had this been an old initiative way, the combat and actions would have definitely been completely different per person and likely would have been worse off for the higher initiative group.

[illumination]

lots to reply to, errr. ok:

one thing which answers a lot of these is for me to say that these kind of modifiers apply all the time, its just that CoC doesnt specify hard and fast numbers for every given scenario.

for instance, if you do have a leg injury and you try a jump roll, ill give you a % minus based on how bad it is. so, wound modifiers do apply, its just that there isnt a chart for standardising it which in my view is the weakness in a lot of other game systems.

now, CoC is indeed a 'loose' system, and if your the kind of player who likes to know exactly whats going on behind the scenes in terms of the number crunching then that looseness will probably be annoying and the instinct will be to get some shit down in black and white so its 'fair' etc.

this point applies also to 1, 3, A and D in its own way too, i reckon you should be able to work out how without me going through each one.

but a point to note is that the 2% type penaltie idea sounds about right for me, and you will be getting something along those lines in my internal working out thoughts during battles etc. but, i dont want to get tied to it, ie. make it an official rule as in some circumstances 2% wouldnt be right. in some it would be 10%, or in others 0%.

ok,

onto the hit locations,

i quite like these and will probably use them when the occasion demands it, might not bother with the sub-table for balls, eyes etc mind you as i would quite enjoy making it up.

appearance.

yes, it might seem a bit of a shame that its the only stat that doesnt translate into a x5 multiplier, the charm stat is an idea but that for me lessens fast talk and persuade as skills. for now, suffice it to say that appearance does do something, again, it applies modifiers to rolls investigators make where it would be useful. (or not). characters get a positive modifier for these skills if they have high APP, and the opposite if low. i do wonder what roughly i should be thinking though in terms of modifiers, ill open it up to the floor on that one.

initiative

there is a strong argument for these type of systems, although it does put in another layer to slow things down. (the declaring actions bit)

what i dont quite get is the assumption that because you are faster off the mark that you can accurately predict what slower people are going to do all the time. in that simple example its fair enough, but in other instances it doesnt make sense to me. for eg.

A and B have guns pointed at each other and fingers on the trigger. A is faster than B but isnt intending on wasting B right away. B declares first that he is going to shoot A, but A somehow knows this and so B gets shot first? this is where it gets a bit nonsensical. maybe you can start getting into sense motive type rolls and all that shite but its getting too complicated for me already.

just so we know how it currently works,

A says im waiting to see what B does and ill shoot him if he shoots me. Then B and A shoot each other simultaneously. its flawed and less good than the reverse system in some cases but as it stands it seems to make sense to me.

sense motive and other new skills

sense motive is an interesing one, im not sure which current skill covers that, so we'll have to have a think.... might be worth throwing in alright, maybe stacks with pych.

other new skills are fine, the CoC system allows for this, thats what the blank boxes on your character sheet are for. just let me know you want to make something up and we'll take it from there.

on a general point, as i said in the introduction on the rules post im mostly looking for things that are seriously wrong and effect our game negatively with what we already have. for instance the initiative order getting a dice thrown into it.

a lot of ideas probably have merit, and go down in my head as ways of working certain situations out, but unless there is a dire need for a new rule or a changed rule we'll stick to the status quo, as the beauty of the rules system ATM is the fact that there are very very few. and the more we add in the more we diminish that.

i guess its easier too in a one DM game too in some ways. although that might change as time goes by if there are volunteers. i got a bit of a run to go yet mind.

[^^Truth]

Appearence.

Average is 10 say. So roughly on the lines of +3% per point above 10, or -3% per point below 10.

So Ingrid would get a +12% (I think) when looks may matter, Ryan +6% and Dr.Bone +0% (being average). Seems about right modifier wise.

Someone with 18 APP would then have +24% when their looks can help them, which sounds good to me.

Initiative.

The thing is, in the current system. Slow people get to accurately predict what faster people are doing.

Flaw in thinking.

Actions all happen at the same time. A round is on average 3-6 seconds. Slow people shouldn't be able to react to fast people, faster people should react to slower people.

Btw. In your example of how the system currently works. I think B should actually shoot A first, because A waited to see what happens. It all happens at the same time though and unless there's an instakill both should fire (maybe even if there is!).

Anyway. The scene you describe is very very situational. In situations like that, it's not really even initiative is it. That kind of situation should be ran in secret and then actions determined after.

[^^Truth]

Want to add this about initiative.

I think this problem stems from D&D and the way initiative works. Which really is because it's much easier.

In initiative you start with the first person, run his actions and then go to the next and so on.

This creates the image that everyone is patiently waiting for whoever is faster than them to swing swords, sprint a hundred foot, chuck fireballs or heal people up.

They're not.

Everything is happening at the same time, but that's really time consuming and brain-busting to run (unless anyone has any good ideas).

Thus you have initiative turns.

Joe Mage goes first, chucks a fireball and injuries Bob Barbarian.

Sally Cleric can then react to that and heal Bob Barbarian.

Slow people reacting to fast.

I guess, if I have to have a system that people are going to react to each other, I'd rather the faster reacting to the slower.

Lets have a pretend combat in D&D with both systems to see how things may pan out.

Team1: Joe Mage INIT 19
Team2: Sally Cleric INIT 16
Team2: Bob Barbarian INIT 12
Team1: Danny Rogue INIT 4

D&D Initiative.

INIT19: Joe Mage chucks a fireball at Bob Barbarian, hurting him badly.
INIT16: Sally Cleric decides to heal Bob Barbarian now he's hurt.
INIT12: Bob Barbarian, now healthly, charges Joe Mage, hurting him badly.
INIT4: Danny Rogue now has his pick of actions (being the slowest), flanking Bob Barbarian or shooting Sally Cleric.

WOD Initiative.

INIT4: Danny Rogue decides to shoot Sally Cleric.
INIT12: Bob Barbarian decides to protect Sally Cleric, charging Danny Rogue.
INIT16: Sally Cleric decides to take cover from Danny Rogue and use a magic protecting buff on Bob Barbarian.
INIT19: Joe Mage now has his pick of actions (being the fastest) and decides to counterspell Sally Cleric because he doesn't want Bob Barbarian being protected from his spells.

...

I know which I prefer.

[illumination]

init.

so, quick one. the init is going to have to remain a agree to disagree topic, there isnt much point in any further debate by means of examples as i think both points of view are well represented here already ^^

we'll get a chance to look at it in the dnd in any case.

app.

the appearance modifiers look good to me, consider them incorporated into your rolls if you will, if i ask for a persuade roll and your trying to bone someone im happy for you to apply the mods yourself. it may even be worth adding your modified roll in brackets on the char sheet for certain skills.

i guess im just saying this is in, but remind me in games in case i forget.

[illumination]

ohh. and dont forget the unaimed shots rule men, you can blaze away at double normal rate of fire at 1/5th chance to hit. this rule also applies when using two handguns or at keepers discretion.

(ie. you just lost 10 SAN and a great old one is slithering at 50mph towards ya)

[illumination]

oh. does anyone know what the fuck happened to the title for CoC in the recruitment forum? some cunt delete it or wha? and how to fix it?

i swear there will be tentacles everywhere once i work out who the culprit is!

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